A ground wire is like an overflow hole in your bathtub. The switches have black, white, and bare, but the white is not neutral because it is just used to complete the circuit. Usually black is hot, red is switched hot. Overview. $34.00 $ 34. On/Off Switch not working (no blue light), FAQ: Neutral and Ground Wires are not Interchangeable, Alternating Current in Electronics: Hot, Neutral, and Ground Wires - dummies, Automated Switches: What should my wiring look like? In a house that was built in 1908 and rewired in the 70s… The outlets have black (hot), white (neutral), and bare (ground). Please take note of the BOLD parts of this. But the important thing is what you learn about the other end of that wire. I see it all day long in IT too. 1-6 mA - generally unpleasant to sustain, but a person still has the ability to release the energized object. That being said, old wiring didn’t use grounds and people survived somehow. Are you familiar with what a home-run circuit is? 00 $44.99 $44.99. Yes, the ground wire will function as a neutral wire and the ground wire and neutral wire are bonded together at the panelboard. I’m an electrical engineer, not an electrician, but I know enough to be comfortable. Two hot wires carry electricity from the power source (battery) to the load (in this case, a lamp). unless they’re tied together with other circuits, and not a ‘home run’ back to the panel, there is no difference between the two where they both end up on the same bus bar in the box. You will learn that yes, they both tie into same bus bar. Mains electrical also has a "Neutral", which is analogous to electronics Vss or GND. Grounds and neutral wires all go back to a common bus bar in the breaker box. If the neutral is a ‘home run’ and not tied into any other circuits, the only difference is the color of the wire. See the "small rechargeable battery" comment. However, some smart switches do require a neutral wire and if this is the case then you have no choice but to add a neutral wire to the smart switch. Agreed. Helping You to Do It Yourself! A white wire or group of white wires mean there’s a strong chance the box contains neutrals. Spending the bones of £200 just to check whether a smart switch is useful or useless is a bit much. FREE Shipping by Amazon. Continuing the discussion from Current Device Deals & Best Prices: a ground and a neutral are both wires. Current never flows on ground (except during a fault) and you never, never intentionally return current there. If most of your experience has been with battery operated devices, or in a physics lab, you are generally working with direct-current, and,the ground and the neutral may well work in a very similar way. Considering a smart switch based on a power greedy WiFi ESP8266 (800mA spikes and 100mA on idle, @ 3.3V), there is the common situation to have the neutral wire missing from the wall switch box (left with 2 hot wires, maybe some earth wire that I don't want to consider in any way). If the manufacturer instructions call for four wires, then trying to get by with three is an intentional code violation. or put the Aeotec G2 (assume it’s a switch module) in the receptacle box, and leave the wallswitch on all the time. 3.8 out of 5 stars 982. Old wiring and Z-wave switched: No Neutral. For instance if the there is no neutral in an outlet, some handyman would connect the ground to the neutral screw on the outlet so the outlet would function. I found this out yesterday. Ground: The bare wire is called the ground wire. Just respect others opinion and advice. This is just a guess, you didn't give us a model number for the switch. Like many other homes, all my neutrals are tied together to ground in the breaker panel. This is a safety feature, in case the hot or neutral wires somehow come in contact with metal parts. Best course of action is to learn learn learn. Honestly, I kinda wish it did, since then it would be CFL compatible. FAQ. A smart switch needs to power itself at all times, so it can respond to requests. Fingers crossed. You definitely don’t want a ton of current flowing over ground. I have one more to install this week. You choose your level of safety. Remember your goal is not to get this particular switch to come on. (US Version). Model: Single Rocker, WS-USC03 Double Rocker, WS-USC04. It’s not like i’m wiring a plug socket with no neutral wires. The smart switches that work without requiring a neutral wire are generally dimmable smart switches. Understood, but how can that work with a compact fluorescent? Four-pole switches. Product Colour: White . Neutral: The white wire is called the neutral wire. The green-colored screw in the upper left is for the ground wire. The purpose of a ground wire on a light switch. In contrast, the ground wire is connected to any metal parts in an appliance such as a microwave oven or coffee pot. In many instances I see the ground and neutral connected together, or used as a substitute for one another at an outlet or a light. C by GE 3-Wire On/Off Toggle Style Smart Switch, Alexa and Google Home Compatible Without Hub, Smart Switch No Neutral Required, Bluetooth/WiFi Switch, Single-Pole/3-Way Smart Switch, White, 1-Pack. It’s connected to the drain but it’s not the same. I am an electrician and like everyone else on here. PD-6WCL. They also require a hub or bridge, which means an additional outlay of over £120 before you can even use the switch! Enjoy your smart lighting control with Aqara Smart Wall Switch With Neutral. Like the neutral wire, the ground wire is also connected to an earth ground. Check with your local building officials. $44.99 $ 44. Dimmer Switch. However, if they are legal and listed, they are tested to limit the bootleg current to some tiny amount that is considered safe by UL. Maybe this will help clear some things up… Dimmer Switch. Sure you don’t need two pilots most flights. But when you do need them… well… Grounds helps electricity choose to go to earth instead of through you. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. The blue light on the GE is white on the Dragon. 2474DWH. We all want the same things, safety first and foremost, and for our fun home automation projects to work (very distant second). Alas, the world is full of people that think they know what they don’t, isn’t it? What is news to you is what prompted a code change requiring a neutral at switch locations several years ago. Eaton-Cooper Aspire. I just wanted to throw in my two cents for what it’s worth. I can state from direct experience that it does *not* use the ground as a neutral. It helps to reduce the flow of power between the light and the switch to a trickle that also results in energy saving. ... Keep in mind that a 3-pole transfer switch with overlapping neutral contacts is not considered a true 4-pole switch, according to the NEC and UL-1008. Actually, you couldn’t be more wrong. Material: PC. You will surely get a flood at some point.  Rerouting the ground into the live circuit runs the risk of both removing the grounding function and possibly pumping live current to that metal appliance. Please have this reviewed by a licensed electrician in your jurisdiction. Don’t want to turn this thread into something else but I highly doubt it any decent electrician would say it’s ok even off the record. Yes, you can install a smart switch without a neutral wire. Others who trust you may or may not be so lucky, choose wisely for them too. Input: 120 V AC 60 Hz. And the key functionality lies that make them a potential fit is a dimming feature. The neutral wire forms a part of the live circuit along with the hot wire. While HS210 is designed to work in a pair, you can replace the wall switch with … The neutral wire then carries electricity back to the power source, completing the circuit. For more information on wiring network switches, see the wiring FAQ: It can help to remember that our goal is not to power on a single individual switch, but rather to power on the switch while also maintaining the fire safety and electrical safety integrity of the whole house wiring system. Location 1.For Lutron, can you highlight which model of Smart Switch is available? The neutral wire is not used with the smart switches in many cases. If the manufacturer instructions say that a neutral should be connected to a specific switch input, connecting a ground there again is an intentional code violation. This is very dangerous. 4.Q:Can I control the switch if I am not at home? Before you start working with line voltage in your electronic circuits, you need to understand a few details about how most residential and commercial buildings are wired. Jasco. But what about when one of your kids is screwing with something. Having to run a neutral wire to smart in-wall switches and dimmers can present problems for certain users. It’s not typically the best idea, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that in some cases it can’t be used safely. For that reason, I treat ground pretty special, just like I’d treat a copilot. In mains electrical wiring, ground is a safety shield. You can run a neutral wire from an outlet to a switch to make it z wave … (In case you were wondering I pulled the above information from an IEEE guide for substation grounding which references numerous papers written by Charles Dalziel. More Buying Choices $31.28 (5 used & new offers) I know your point is that people shouldn’t be doing wiring unless they know exactly what they’re doing, and I agree completely, but they don’t always know that they don’t know. Lutron Caseta. Hot: The black wire is the hot wire, which provides a 120 VAC current source. or is "Neutro" in spanish? They are both wires, but they serve very different purposes in a residential home circuit. Where to Buy > Specifications. Just as an FYI, I installed the Dragon WS-100 today and it looks almost identical to the GE in many ways. It just keeps things simple or no matter what level of knowledge or experience you have. However, the neutral and ground wires serve two distinct purposes. Note that some circuits require a fourth conductor. It provides the return path for the current provided by the hot wire. I think we’re lacking in comments from that demographic. These are great for DIY installers looking for an effective smart lighting solution. Local amendments may apply. Funny thing is, I had an electrician tell me that I could do just that, use the ground to the neutral. the hot goes from the load (outlet, in this instance) to the breaker. 60-100 mA - ventricular fibrillation (ie stoppage of the heart), inability to control your respiratory system. With that, all the smart features will be ready to work even though is not activated. If I recall, it's just a trickle of current that ends up on the ground conductor. And likely a violation of your insurance policy. So even though they are both wires, they typically function very differently. 3.8 out of 5 stars 1,025. If there are 3 left on the switch then 1 of those will need to be capped off. FREE Shipping by Amazon. BRAND . When a fourth conductor is used, it’s covered with red insulation and is also a hot wire. On-Off Switch. This is one reason that the NEC says follow the manufacturer’s directions. • A permanent connection of both source neutrals to the load neutral, compromising ground fault interrupting (GFI) devices, and • A permanent open load neutral. Step 3：Remove existing faceplate and light switch, then identify Live/Load, Neutral and Ground lines. Adding it into the live circuit just creates all kinds of potential problems, including fire hazards. A:Yes, you can remotely control your switch and conveniently turn it on/off anywhere,anytime. Sure, but this whole conversation started when someone who knew very little about wiring made the blanket suggestion that anyone who didn’t have a neutral at their switchbox could just stick the ground in there instead. And in some systems this neutral is grounded for safety. CFL lamps have an electronic circuit board in them. Using the overflow instead of the main drain. If that is so, then how would it work when the light is off? The amount of current drawn simply to power the switch is the key to everything in my mind. It may “work” in some cases in terms of powering that particular switch on but I stand by the statement that it is not automatically the same as far as the integrity of the whole house wiring. Specs. All depending on the exact wiring in that specific home, of course. App control and voice control with Apple HomeKit, Google Assistant & Amazon Alexa are ready! How are you going to feel when you have to live the rest of your life knowing your violation of a safety hazard ended one of their lives. Most of my house has one, this one box doesn’t. Get it as soon as Mon, Feb 8. Step 4 ： Connect the Smart Switch wiring with the provided wire connectors as follows. http://www.lutron.com/TechnicalDocumentLibrary/369-143.pdf, VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter, Suite 901, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. ... if you find that one wall switch has a neutral wire bundle but the other one does not, you may still be able to use HS210. People who do know wiring, will know what to do to figure out what is going on on the circuits in front of them. I needed something cheaper to get me started! So there are two identical wires going from the oulet to the bus bar in the box. Answers based on the National Electrical Code. I will gladly admit I am not an electrician. Do some research and learn about the purpose of the ground and the neutral. The ground is only used for safety. Dimmer Switch. There are smart switches that do not require a neutral. TYPE / FUNCTION . The neutral will be the return half of the live AC circuit. best practice is to pull a neutral to each location that can use it. The actual neutral may be at the fixture or in a junction box somewhere. C by GE's new smart switches don't need a hub, or a neutral wire. I wish my house had a separate neutral and ground in the light switch boxes, but the fact is, it doesn’t. On-Off Switch (Dimmable Through Controller) MODEL . More Buying Choices $33.86 (5 used & new offers) Amazon Certified: Works with Alexa. 1 mA - A person is able to detect slight tingling sensation in the hands/fingertips. I wanted to research it, as it bothered me from a safety point of view. Not realizing that the wiring for a networked switch may be quite different then the non-networked switch that they are replacing. PD-5WS-DV. This is actually a huge safety issue. Or what difference it might make. What Are The Best Smart Switches That Work Without A Neutral? The instructions for the switch will usually show a schematic or wiring diagram. Ground = Neutral ? Figure out what the ground is connected to, then figure out what the neutral is connected to. It certainly looks like the same “base” manufacturing to my eyes. Most useful smart home technology networks such as Z-Wave Plus, Wi-Fi, and even Bluetooth requires constant energy to work! This type of automatic transfer switch offers the following benefits: It’s good to talk, but yes, sometimes everyone is an expert. If what I say helps great, if not, ignore it. Neutral provides the return path to the a. C. Current and this neutral is connected to a neutral point of a star connected winding of the distribution transformer. trust me it’s much safer. If you know what you are doing, and do it anyways, you are in ok hands (your own). For a normal light switch, the ground is a safety feature, not necessary for operation. Connect each of the two black wires from the switch to the available Live lines via the wire nut, and wrap electrical tape around the wire nuts to make sure the copper conductor The no neutral version is the one that dumps minor current to ground. Copy and Pasted from the other thread to keep things neat. Get it as soon as Tue, Feb 2. Smart Switches That Work Without A Neutral Wire. I am however a very experienced electronics tech. Insteon. Guess I need to get another electrician to validate, or tell me the ability to run that neutral if needed. the Neutral goes from the neutral side of the load to the neutral/ground bus bar in the circuit breaker. Limited time deal. No-Neutral Smart Switch Comparison Table 2020. While it’s a bit off topic, I thought it would be appropriate to share some of the effects of different magnitudes of electrical current on the human body which were conducted by Charles Dalziel (inventor of the GFCI and professor of electrical engineering at UC Berkeley). I don’t recommend it, but you can … In these environments you do sometimes hear the statement that the ground and neutral are interchangeable. GE In Wall Smart Switch Howto for older houses, Leviton dw15s 3 way smart switch install light flickering or not working at all (one way), Current Device Deals & Best Prices (link to new thread at bottom of thread). If your house has a bonded neutral and ground then it should be at only at one connector and that is your circuit breaker panel and nowhere else. Differently Wired 3-Way switches, how to GE Z-Wave them? Also, for those without neutral connections in older construction (neutral bonded to ground back at the panel) like me, I was able to successfully get all my paddle switches to work using the ground as the neutral to feed them power. The neutral wire is connected to an earth ground. By design, they "bootleg" some neutral / return current on the ground wire. Powering the electronics in the smart switch from the 2 hot wires will draw current through the light bulbs, making … A forum community dedicated to Do it yourself-ers and home improvement enthusiasts. If you think it’s ok to do certain thing then that’s your choice. An electrician is not going to be able to tell you this is OK, but they could tell you off-the record that it will work. Lutron Caseta. Especially when they think they’re just replacing one switch with another. C by GE 3-Wire On/Off Paddle Style Smart Switch, Alexa and Google Home Compatible Without Hub, Smart Switch No Neutral Required, Bluetooth/WiFi Switch, Single-Pole/3-Way Smart Switch, White, 1-Pack. The neutral wire forms a part of the live circuit along with the hot wire. And likely not to code. It went in exactly like the GE (which I also have installed) and paired correctly on the first try. A ground is not a neutral period. There are some smart light switches and dimmers that do not require a neutral wire. User Manual. He’s got my back. A smart switch can simply tie into the white neutral wires to complete the circuit and get a source of power to keep the radios in the switch working at all times. No, you should never use a ground wire as a neutral. Otherwise, I truly appreciate all who are looking out for the DIY crowd who sometimes know just enough to be “dangerous” (one of my favorite sayings btw). Your goal is to get this particular switch to come on while maintaining the fire and electrical safety integrity of your whole house electrical system. Why Smart Switches can't be used without neutral — Vesternet If I want my lights to come on when I get in a room, I'll leave a note. Because this is an occupancy sensor and has electronics that needs power, it needs to have a neutral. Come join the discussion about tools, projects, builds, styles, scales, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! Many of these people have no idea where the ground runs to. At this point, you need to make sure the wire is neutral. Same rear housing, same exact terminal connections, etc. Everybody here had better know what they’re doing when working with electrical circuits - scaring them into calling an electrician or worse is not going to change their minds. In this scenario it’s more about the path of current flow. They will often blink or flicker when off when used in this type of application. The last thing you want is the chassis of your washer as a current carrying conductor. Now the only problem with … The lutron occupancy sensor, and maybe some of their other leaded switches. However, the neutral and ground wires serve two distinct purposes. Tie the neutral white to the bundle of whites and the ground for the switch to the ground bundle, the other 2 wires will go to the switch. We are just trying to help each other really. Its purpose is to be used when there is a fault in the normal live circuit so that the extra current has someplace to go. 3-Way Installation - Caséta® Wireless In-Wall Neutral Switch with Pico® Remote Control . I put in a 3-way with the dragon auxiliary. This switch can be upgraded to a Smart Switch using the TP-Link HS200 Wi-Fi Smart Switch (so long as there are neutral wires in the junction box). I think all the Lutron Maestro switches are like this. Next question? 99. Which means, for the same device, you can use either with neutral wire wiring or without neutral wire wiring. I'm not sure how it works with cfl but I would suspect the electronics in the base of the cfl's allow a continuous pass-through current flow just like any other. Turn your breaker box off. Notice it has two ground leads. Do experimental on painting. Ground: The bare wire is called the ground wire. Any grounding happens between the bus bar and the ground wire/ground stake, not between the ground wire and the bus bar. Like the neutral wire, the ground wire is also connected to an earth ground. This is the most common light switch found in a home. Connecting the metal parts to earth ground eliminates the shock hazard in the event of a short circuit. The ground needs to be left as the ground. Remove the trim plate covering the switch. For example, Lutron Caseta devices do not use a neutral wire. My uncle always used to say “the hardest thing to remember is what you didn’t used to know.” People who don’t know wiring will be better served by the rule of thumb that the ground and the neutral are not interchangeable. Just think of it this way. Maybe a better analogy is that it’s like a copilot in an airplane. The installer just needs to be aware of what they’re working with. One is bare and goes to the yoke/frame of the switch, and the other goes inside to the circuit board with the other leads. I thought they couldn't conduct at all unless they were on. In addition to neutral wires, most North American circuits contain two hot wires and a ground wire. Stepping down from my Father of 8 soapbox. You are playing with at least 120 VAC. Not something to be undertaken lightly. Leave ground as ground everywhere, do not cheat neutrals or you negate the ground safety function. ), Powered by Discourse, best viewed with JavaScript enabled. As you can tell it doesn’t take very much current before we get in trouble, so maintaining proper grounding is crucial to having a safe home. Posted on February 11, 2018 February 16, 2019 by Tomas McGuinness. You can leave that screw unconnected if you don’t have a ground wire, or if you have the wire but no screw on the switch, you can ground the switch another way. As long as you don't have more than 3 wires to twist under a wire nut when you put the sensor in, everything should be good. In the US, electrical code requires following manufacturer instructions. One is grounded and one is grounding. RF9536WS / … Any options? If a circuit is home-run, it’s directly going back to the circuit breaker box, not tied into anything else. I’m happy to hear comments about this from licensed electricians. Video. I did a fair amount of research before using my ground as a neutral for the purpose of powering a zwave switch. Never. Smart switches and the missing neutral! JavaScript is disabled. The main difference between neutral and ground is that neutral provides a return path for the current in order to complete the circuit, while ground connects metal parts of a device to the earth in order to provide a safe path for current to flow though, in case a wire becomes damaged and metal parts of the device starts conducting current. However, in a house, the ground will often be connected to a metal appliance such as a washing machine or a toaster, and normally carries very little current. Take out the screws from the switch. Dimensions: 120 x 74 x 36.5 … This electricity will take you from walkin and talkin to a lump of coal really quick. Be safe guys. Pull out the existing switch so you can examine the wires. The ground… goes back to the neutral/ground bus bar in the circuit breaker. Option 1 - Run a Neutral Wire If you want to use smart switches and don't have a neutral wire in your switch box, you can hire an electrician to run a neutral wire between the light fixture and the switch. So since the ground and neutral wires are essentially the same and bonded together, why would you not use the ground wire as a neutral? So in this circuit you have the potential for a hot, neutral and ground. 9-25 mA - typically painful and muscle contractions make it difficult to release the energized objects Now, if you want to play with your own life, no one can stop you. Smart switches, dimmers, and so on, require a neutral wire installation so it can be energized all the time. For this campaign, it’s the ONLY smart wall switch supports both with or without neutral wire. Am I correct? Not a worry, just here to help and learn. It looks like the lutron switch uses the ground wires as a neutral to power the electronics! A:No,you don't need.This kind of smart switch enables you to easily control the backlight indicator on your Smart Life phone App at will. Smart homes comprised of smart switches or a smart switch typically don’t come with a neutral wire for smart homes.